Curse

Kunder · Jul 23, 2011, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Ok, so heres a great way to imagine how useful elly skills are in PVE:

How many non elementalist classes would rather choose to play a secondary elementalist instead of using skills from their primary profession?

If ellys are so great, balanced, and viable for HM then why not run searing flames and meteor shower on your monk and complete a HM dungeon book like ellys are having to do with monk skills?

hahaohwow.jpg

Are you seriously questioning the ability of people to beat HM dungeons with crappy builds? There is a 50/50 chance I have a screenshot of some pug player running a Mo/E fire nuker there in my VERY extensive "lol bad builds" folder.

Eles are perfectly balanced for the 95% of mobs with normal or only slightly enhanced armor levels as long as someone on the team is providing Cracked Armor. And no, the 5% of mobs with absolutely ridiculous armor levels are not everywhere in HM/Elite/Dungeon/whatever areas, they are very rare special opponents in all cases.

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You cant even maintain prot bond on several party members with shield guardian. I tried it and it doesnt work. Only burning speed works for prot bond because it has an instant recharge. RoF with its 2s recharge would also never work for maintaining prot bond on several party members.

There are other skills with 0s recharge. I think you might have used one already as an E/Mo. Hint: it starts with "In" and ends with "fuse".

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The UWSC Protbond build has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue behind this skill change, as many people who play these builds have realized the only obvious reason why it would be changed would be due to its use on the PVE Emo prot build, and the new version isnt any better at all for PVE, or for monks anyway.

More like, Anet saw a skill that was useless outside of retarded OP gimmicks and decided to retool it in a halfway imaginative way into something quite decent. But sure, whine and bitch as if those big meanies at Anet are out to get you.

Elnino · Jul 23, 2011, 06:17 AM // 06:17

It's alright kids, one broken toy ain't gonna hurt you. You've still got a great big chest full of retarted OP toys at your disposal. Let's not start a crying session.

On Topic: Shield Guardian may finally see some play, rather than being completely useless like it used to be. Trip Melee should be much weaker now.

Bristlebane · Jul 23, 2011, 06:34 AM // 06:34

It's useful as an anti-pressure skill, just don't use it until several nearby allies takes damage at same time. I'm afraid heroes might not use it properly as it requires timing to be useful.

Reverend Dr · Jul 23, 2011, 07:07 AM // 07:07

One skill gets changed. It makes a minor modification (seriously do you need anything more than permanent prot spirit and spirit bond on every character?) in a brainless overpowered pve build. And then people are up in arms.

The ER prot/heal whatever spam build is just as [over]powerful as it has ever been. What? Permanent Prot spirit and spirit bond on every character or 100% health infuse health on recharge isn't good enough?

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Originally Posted by Chthon

Yep. It's a major blow to ER's redbarup ability. This was our AoE anti-pressure skill. Now we're left leaning even harder on Spirit Bond (which is not always reliable as anti-pressure because of its need for a big packet), switching to RoF (which shares the same weakness as SB, and lacks AoE), and ultimately using Infuse more as an anti-pressure skill.

Hi, I'm a monk. I would literally shit my pants in joy if I could use RoF, Spirit Bond, and Infuse Health on recharge. Cuz, you know, those are my skills.

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Originally Posted by Translation

1. For the sake of being condescending, I [poorly] ran this on an AP monk for tonight's ZM, in a [terrible]PUG (so lots of piss poor play and people deliberately making it harder). It performed exactly as I expected, because I went in trying to make it bad and I am a bad player that can't be bothered to learn anything new and of course, if I can't pick it up in just one try then its bad. (And I was expecting to write this post before I even started.) I used it every chance I had, which on recharge is certainly the right time, in hopes of getting some big numbers out of it, because proper prot involves big numbers rather than making big numbers smaller. My prot build healed maybe 150hp total over the whole mission, because clearly I didn't bother to spec into divine favor nor to push buttons. Sorry, but I am better than you and my few minutes trying out a build I have never played before when I clearly crutch an overpowered push button build is far more than enough anecdotal evidence to say I am right and you are wrong neener neener neener

In all seriousness, I'd much rather see these small, but frequent, updates that we have just had as opposed to the large updates with months of no support in between.

Chthon · Jul 23, 2011, 07:17 AM // 07:17

1. For the sake of being open-minded, I ran this on an AP monk for tonight's ZM, in a PUG (so lots of bad chaotic aggro to ensure people get hit). It performed a lot worse than I expected. (And I was expecting something pretty bad.) I used it every chance I had in hopes of getting some big numbers out of it. It healed maybe 150hp total over the whole mission. Not 150hp per use. Not 150hp per person. 150hp total for the whole party for the whole mission. Sorry, but this skill is just junk now.

2.

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Originally Posted by bhavv

The AoE heal every second was very nice. The old shield guardian was a RoF with a fixed AoE heal that didnt depend on how much damage was reduced. It was very reliable and effective on builds with the energy to use it.

Yep. It's a major blow to ER's redbarup ability. This was our AoE anti-pressure skill. Now we're left leaning even harder on Spirit Bond (which is not always reliable as anti-pressure because of its need for a big packet), switching to RoF (which shares the same weakness as SB, and lacks AoE), and ultimately using Infuse more as an anti-pressure skill. (The other alternative to fill the gap is speccing into Healing Prayers for something like Vigorous Spirit, Healing Breeze(?!), or Healing Ribbon(?!?!) and taking a loss on all the prot skills.)

WhiteAsIce · Jul 23, 2011, 08:33 AM // 08:33

The part where it heals all allies in earshot range seems quite unbalanced - used at the exact right moment, it essentially refreshes the entire party + allies, but no one has that kind of prediction power anyways. I foresee this part getting patched soon.

Riot Narita · Jul 23, 2011, 08:34 AM // 08:34

A message from my ER Ele's: "DAMN YOU A-NET"

drkn · Jul 23, 2011, 08:53 AM // 08:53

ER ele is yet another broken build, nearly as terribly as SF. I do use it on a hero sometimes, but heck, it should be nerfed into oblivion, along other overpowered shit. I'd rather see eles overpowered when it comes to damaging/snaring than healing, so if the resources of LT are so limited, just nerf ER eles and buff their damage, then scale it down accordingly.

Xenomortis · Jul 23, 2011, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The ER prot/heal whatever spam build is just as [over]powerful as it has ever been. What? Permanent Prot spirit and spirit bond on every character or 100% health infuse health on recharge isn't good enough?

It's better than that, you can maintain Protective Bond on an entire party too.

A minor nerf to PvE, ER bars can just take Reversal of Fortune instead (loss of an AoE heal but ER builds have always sucked at that). PvP gets a potentially useful skill, but I'm not sure how good a single block is going to be. Something might come out of the party heal aspect of it, if you're facing several physicals that are attacking different people.
For PvE I'll simply keep Aegis and probably never bother with this new skill; the energy cost is too high for my Monk without a strong enough effect and the recharge is too high for an ER to want it.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

uh

this was specifically a pvp update

or you might just be the biggest troll in riverside and i just got baited hard

No it wasnt because the skill wasnt split for PVP. The skill is also changed in PVE, hence it affects that content too.

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Originally Posted by drkn

ER ele is yet another broken build, nearly as terribly as SF. I do use it on a hero sometimes, but heck, it should be nerfed into oblivion, along other overpowered shit. I'd rather see eles overpowered when it comes to damaging/snaring than healing, so if the resources of LT are so limited, just nerf ER eles and buff their damage, then scale it down accordingly.

Its no where near as bad as shadow form - You cant use a full group of ER ellys to speed clear everything in PVE.

Also Soul Twisting + Shelter rits are still massively more powerful than ER ellys are,

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Originally Posted by Outerworld

The skill was barely used in PvE, so why would Anet have split it?

It wasnt barely used in PVE, it was used very often by one build.

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Originally Posted by Kunder

hahaohwow.jpg

Are you seriously questioning the ability of people to beat HM dungeons with crappy builds? There is a 50/50 chance I have a screenshot of some pug player running a Mo/E fire nuker there in my VERY extensive "lol bad builds" folder.

No that isnt what I'm questioning. I'm asking that if the elly skills are so good and balanced, then why dont players use them on other classes?

Mesmers, rits, necros and even monks deal a lot more damage in HM than ellys can. I've tried running a team of 4 invoke lightning bars and it doesnt even do half as well as 4 mesmers do.

Outerworld · Jul 23, 2011, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

No it wasnt because the skill wasnt split for PVP. The skill is also changed in PVE, hence it affects that content too.

The skill was barely used in PvE, so why would Anet have split it?

Tommy's · Jul 23, 2011, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

No that isnt what I'm questioning. I'm asking that if the elly skills are so good and balanced, then why dont players use them on other classes?

Mesmers, rits, necros and even monks deal a lot more damage in HM than ellys can. I've tried running a team of 4 invoke lightning bars and it doesnt even do half as well as 4 mesmers do.

I think what Kunder was saying, is that Elementalist is one of the actual balanced classes whereas others are actually overpowered. Seems like a reason not to pick an elementalist, as people prefer overpowered classes in their team.

And I agree, this skill change seems mostly a PvP update, aiming on giving the triple derv teams a tougher time. I think there are still some vital replacements for Shield Guardian, since the only real point of that skill was its quick recharge time to keep the ellys energy up.

Essence Snow · Jul 23, 2011, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

The skill was barely used in PvE, so why would Anet have split it?

Was it used in PvP?

Xenomortis · Jul 23, 2011, 12:57 PM // 12:57

No and that made it a fairly good candidate for this change.

DiogoSilva · Jul 23, 2011, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Seems like a good change for both formats. One PvE broken build becomes slightly less broken, while for PvP it might (or not) rise an extra defense against triple melee (three melees get to attack, monk casts shield guardian, three attacks are blocked and entire party healed by 120 HP).

I would like if future skill updates were more like this. But I wonder if it wasn't just a coincidence that it affected ER Protters, or if it was done on purpose.

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Eles are perfectly balanced for the 95% of mobs with normal or only slightly enhanced armor levels as long as someone on the team is providing Cracked Armor.

Eles will be perfectly balanced when their skills work 100% as they are supposed to do. AKA, deal 100% the damage they are supposed to deal. For now, their average is a laughably 40-60%, if I'm not wrong. When you spend 25 energy for an AoE 40 damage, you know it isn't balanced at all.

Cracked armor should be a further buff to garantee they deal normal damage to heavy armorers, not a necessity so that they deal normal (or almost normal) damage to the most fragile of foes.

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I think what Kunder was saying, is that Elementalist is one of the actual balanced classes whereas others are actually overpowered. Seems like a reason not to pick an elementalist, as people prefer overpowered classes in their team.

Thing is, there are underpowered professions for PvE as well. That format isn't only the heaven for OP stuff. Paragon, for example, was nerf so much for PvP without skill splits, that they can hardly do anything for PvE now. Ranger's mechanics are mostly useless (for any format, bare exceptional cases) and they are balanced around PvP too. And elementalists? They were crippled because of the initially poorly thought-out Hard Mode features, which discriminates them more over the other classes for no actual reason. Meanwhile, in WiK Hard Mode, because it was better thought of and enemies were given better bars and synergy instead of extra armor, elementalists are balanced there. Now, if that just happened everywhere else (remove Armor buff, compensate with better builds or something else), elementalists would be back again to be a balanced class (but of course, mesmers, necros and rits would still need to be nerfed).

Elnino · Jul 23, 2011, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Its no where near as bad as shadow form - You cant use a full group of ER ellys to speed clear everything in PVE.

Also Soul Twisting + Shelter rits are still massively more powerful than ER ellys are,

Here's a similar situation: One man blows up a bomb in a city, killing hundreds. Another guy murders an old lady.

One of those is worse than the other but it doesn't change the fact that both of them are terrible things to do/happen.

Such as the above, shadowform may be "worse" than ER eles but it doesn't change the fact that ER eles are bad and broken. Shadowform is just more broken.

DiogoSilva · Jul 23, 2011, 01:14 PM // 13:14

I think Stumme hinted at a SF nerf sometime ago. Hope it truly happens.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy's

I think what Kunder was saying, is that Elementalist is one of the actual balanced classes ....

Only true for NM, not for HM at all, which is what I and most people who play elementalists are saying.

Just about every non Energy Storage elly elite is mostly useless in HM PVE. Ok yes, they can still work and, but going by other peoples reasoning, so can orison, mending and any other skill that is universally considered to be bad.

So why are ellys always ignored by people who dont even play them in PVE and have no clue about how weak their main attribute skills actually are? I actually used to use both Invoke, and prior to that MoI in HM because both of those worked far better than any fire or earth elite does in HM PVE. But both of those were nerfed even though they really were the only viable HM options. Invoke deals far less damage than any other caster class, and MoI has too long a recharge now due to its PVP nerfs also not having been split.

After that I started running prism and ER builds. I really dont care if people think that a skill wasnt used in PVE therefore didnt require a split, I actually used a lot of the skills that were simply nerfed / changed for PVP without being split and now they are useless in PVE in comparison to all the other options as did other elementalist players.

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Originally Posted by Elnino

Such as the above, shadowform may be "worse" than ER eles but it doesn't change the fact that ER eles are bad and broken. Shadowform is just more broken.

So why not mention ritualists in your comparison as well because those prot and damage a lot better than ellys can. 'ER ellys being broken' doesnt fix the fact that their damage elites are mostly useless in HM PVE. This is the reason why people play their ellys with ER, not because ER is broken.

Elementalists are the lowest tier caster in PVE, why exactly are they always being nerfed so much over the other classes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

Here's a similar situation: One man blows up a bomb in a city, killing hundreds. Another guy murders an old lady.

Then from a video games balance perspective, either the first guy needed to be nerfed, or the second one needed to be buffed. Nerfing the second guy would be a hugely imbalanced update.

I dont get why you would use such a terrible example to compare skills in a video game.

Swingline · Jul 23, 2011, 01:22 PM // 13:22

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Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

I think Stumme hinted at a SF nerf sometime ago. Hope it truly happens.

Better late than never.

As for Shield Guardian it was for counter purposes to the 3 melee problem in GvG/HA. However I agree that it is very lackluster and for 10 energy it probably should have a lower recharge and a bit higher healing.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 01:24 PM // 13:24

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Originally Posted by Swingline

As for Shield Guardian it was for counter purposes to the 3 melee problem in GvG/HA. However I agree that it is very lackluster and for 10 energy it probably should have a lower recharge and a bit higher healing.

It should also have been split then if the change was for PVP only. Why do skill splits exists if they arent being used when skills are changed for PVP?